Hamou and I have spent quite a bit of time discussing the happy topic of children, and one of the main points of contention is where we’ll have them. I vote for the States, for the quality of pre-natal care. He leans toward Morocco, I think because he imagines that he’ll be able to set me up in a private clinic in Casa, slip the doctor some ja’aba, and generally be in control of the situation – which he wouldn’t be here.
However, there is a unique facet of mommydom that makes me more inclined to choose Morocco, and that’s the tendency of mothers to spew their vile opinions to anyone, at any time, and God Help You if you disagree with them. There are several topics that are a sign to run immediately in the opposite direction:
- breastfeeding vs. bottlefeeding
- circumcision
- immunizations
- baby sleep therapy
- the labor itself
So why Morocco? Simple – when I don’t want to listen, I conveniently forget every bit of Arabic and Berber that I know. All of the fduli (nosiness) rolls off me like water off a rain slicker. It would be a little bit harder here, as in the case of a exchange about circumcision on one of those horrendous mommy boards:
“MoonJelly” – Should I bring up the topic to an expecting couple over dinner at a restaurant? I may not have a whole lot of face time with these people (my cousin and her husband) and they are expecting a boy. I will see them on Friday and then on Christmas. Their baby is due in March. Can anyone help me get it started? DH will be there too and really wants to help. I also don’t want to “ruin” dinner. Not that it would ruin it for me, but I have no idea how they will take it or where they stand. I would like to start a convo now so that I can follow up with them when we see them again in two weeks.”
“ND_Deadhead” – I think I’d bring it up at dinner. Chances are the pregnancy and baby are going to be topics of conversation anyway. Ask if they have picked out a name; obviously they had an ultrasound (to determine gender), so you can mention how relieved they must have been to see for themselves that the baby was normal, healthy, had all his required parts in the right places. Talk about nursing, back sleeping, etc, and how things have sure changed since our mothers were having babies! In many hospitals, they used to just circumcise all the baby boys, without even asking!
That will provide the opportunity to see how they feel about it, without confrontation. If they express a desire to circumcise, you can say “You know, the circumcision rate is really dropping, now that doctors are realizing that there are no medical benefits. Not only is it comestic surgery, it is dangerous. A baby bled to death in Canada recently after his circumcision, and babies die every year from hemmorage, infection, and other complications.”
First of all, don’t ever try to have a “convo” with me, “mmmkay?” It will end badly for you. Secondly, if anyone tries to ask me a series of disingenuous questions, then blindsides me with stories about babies bleeding to death, per your own agenda – well, you won’t be invited to dinner again, and you’ll be lucky if I don’t stab you in the throat with a fork.
Bill Day
December 15, 2006 at 1:25 am
Another perspective on the same dilemma.
Felix
December 15, 2006 at 2:04 am
Thanks for the link, how fascinating. I saw your comment, too – were you in the operating room for both of the births? That’s something I need to ask Hamou about. :0
eatbees
December 15, 2006 at 3:56 am
OT – Thanks for kinda taking my side over on Myrtus’ blog. I just got back into it myself. Oh my god, it’s dupes like me that are gonna let Islamofascism overrun America! Not that I’d ever want to vote for Ahmadinejad personally.
If I was a Moroccan voter I might go for the PJD though….
“…and you’ll be lucky if I don’t stab you in the throat with a fork.”
Back on topic, I think I’m starting to see what that psychological profile you posted is all about. You are 74% brutal, at least!
Maryam in Marrakesh
December 15, 2006 at 8:16 am
Dear Liosliath-
I have lots of opinions on this, actually. I had my daughter in Morocco. And my son in Namibia.
If I were to have another child, I would have the baby in Morocco.
However, there are definitely some downsides.
In Morocco:
* Less equipment etc if dealing with problem births as compared to the US
* Tendency to be C-section happy with “rich” folk
* Less comfort with talking through all the miniscule details pre-delivery
* Complete lack of comfort with having the husband in the delivery room with a c-section (mine was the first that they ever allowed in the clinic where I was) and it took a great deal of cajoling/threats and a major avocacy campaign).
* Far less skilled nurses. The doctors are absolutely fine. But with the nurses/helpers, for example on the night shift, you wonder if they have had training at all (and I gave birth in an upscale private clinic)
* You need to bring everything with you to the hospital including stuff for basic care for you and your baby.
*Inability to have any special techniques, like leboyer births, etc. They do it “their” way – end of story.
Overall, my experience was actually much better in Namibia. But despite what I have outlined above, would not hesitate to give birth in Morocco IN A PRIVATE CLINIC. Hundreds of women do it every day, after all, with no adverse effects;-)
Felix
December 15, 2006 at 3:36 pm
EB – I don’t know that I agree with you, either, but I hope we could have a more reasonable conversation than “OMG you stupid moron how can you believe that?”
Maryam – Thank you! That’s great information.
Also, I swear, I’m just kidding about stabbing people in the throat – though I might ACCIDENTALLY trip you on your way out the door. Ha
deeshla
December 15, 2006 at 6:01 pm
It is true that they are c-section happy in Morocco – my Ob/Gyn in Rabat said they section over-35 women as a matter of course. That was not acceptable to me and we came home (USA) for the birth and postpartum. We wanted all those choices recognized (husband in room, cutting cord, etc. and a natural birth plus the care of a midwife, not MD). Raising our new baby is another story. I’d like to do a lot of that back in Morocco.
Jeni
December 16, 2006 at 7:09 am
Hey Lili, a very INTERESTING topic from you, eh ?!?!? So ?????!!
From what I hear, they are just as C-section happy in the States, so I guess it’s six of one… half dozen of another? But if I *was* going to be sliced and diced…. maybe do that in the States???
I really like your theory of tuning out the advice by feigning lingual confusion… BRILLIANT!
I have gotten some strong opinions from people about childbirth and baby stuff and I just let it roll off…. I like to devilishly point out how “on different continents they have such wildly different views on baby-having, caregiving, and somehow most of the babies seem to survive!”
Good luck, I am very interested to watch this process! And as for circumcision… maybe you get lucky & have a girl, and no discussion necessary (thank GAWD you ain’t in Saudi Arabia). Here in Europe it’s just not done, and you don’t have guys running around with severe penis problems.
Felix
December 16, 2006 at 11:18 am
Deeshla – Thanks for the info – how old is your new baby now?
Jeni – Nooooo, not yet, ha ha. Hamou’s in Morocco right now, anyway, so it’s physically impossible. I hope I won’t have to even consider a c-section – my ob/gyn once said that I wouldn’t have any trouble having babies, must be the size of my hips, argh. As for circumcision, we haven’t decided yet, I just object to annoying interference from family/friends/strangers!
Anyway, I was sort of hoping that KIM would be next on the baby list!
deeshla
December 16, 2006 at 10:51 pm
Our little Noor is 2 1/2 weeks old. I moved from Morocco when I was 6 months pregnant.
I think there is some good support in Morocco if you decide to go that route. As it turns out I would have been happier just squatting and getting the help of a traditional midwife rather that the medical assistance of my Rabat doctor. (Sana khol-in-the-eyes which is how they do it in some parts)
Jeni — it is true they are c-sectioning waaaaay too much in the US these days – but Morocco is pushing the limits and you find that they are doing them for no reason at all (especially with those who equate surgery with medical progress, ick!) – doctor gets paid more as well.
Jeni
December 17, 2006 at 6:34 pm
Lili, you & I can be in the “child bearing” hips club then !!!
Hey some GOOD NEWS for you : my mom is 6′ tall (kinda like you) , & she only gained *SEVEN POUNDS* when she was prego with me! (yes, you read that right!). So maybe no one will give you annoying advice for the first 7 months or so, since they won’t even be able to tell you’re pregnant! Problem solved!
I’m up 4 lbs by 5th month, so I have 3 lbs to go. Uh huh. I’m holding my breath here.
Felix
December 17, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Deeshla – Wow, congratulations!
Jeni – Seven pounds, hm, one can only hope! I already told my mom that I wasn’t going to even tell her I was pregnant (when it happens!) because she repeats everything to her friends at work!
Only 4 lbs for you so far? No wonder you still look so chic!